Do you remember us having different emotions and

developing personalities and stuff like that?

 

Oh, sure.

 

Do you have like a specific memory of one of us?

 

Well-

 

*incoherent yelling*

 

Wait, oh, Mom’s got one. Yeah, that’s a good one.

Faith, when she was really little, liked balloons.

We had a party at our house and had bunches

of balloons outside and it was kind of windy

and Faith was pretty agitated about

that, and, eventually, one got away and took

off up into the sky, and she flipped her shit.

 

*laughter*

 

Very upset. She didn’t like that at all, and we

eventually figured out that she was upset because

the balloon was going to be away from its mommy.

 

That sounds just like Faith.

​

Yeah.

 

That’s funny. So, talking about Faith, because I

can’t really talk about myself objectively, but as

Faith grew up, did you and Mom see yourselves

as guides in developing a personality and to teach

her about when certain emotions were appropriate?

Is that a role of a parent when kids are younger?

 

Well, yes, that is a role, but you’re walking a fine

line. You don’t tell her exactly this is an emotion you

should have, this is an emotion you shouldn’t have,

it kind of …that’s part of being an individual. Some

wear their heart on their sleeve and some don’t

and…like I said, there’s a balance. Some of it’s directing

your child, this is good, this is bad, some of it is

stepping back and letting them be their own person.

You know what I mean?

 

Yeah.

 

So you can’t go too strong one way, too strong

another way, it’s about finding that balance.

​

Right. I think the same thing holds true, though.

Like I remember you guys telling Faith and I, you

know, you shouldn’t do this because when you grow

up you’re going to appreciate things like this, and I

still remember thinking *scoff,* "so?"

 

Oh yeah.

 

Like, you still have to figure some stuff out for yourself,

regardless of how much help you get.

 

Exactly. Yes. There’s only so much you can

do for a kid. You gotta step back and let them be

their own person, because if they figure it

out for themselves, it means a lot more than being told.

​

​

You gotta step back and let them be their own person, because if they figure it out for themselves, it means a lot more than being told.

​

​

For sure. So, with Faith, was she more of an

emotional kid? Because she’s pretty outwardly

emotional now, so could you see that in her growing up?

 

Um, it would vary. One thing that sticks in my head is,

you know, dropping her off at preschool.

The first few times, it was…*laughs*…

it was very difficult.

 

For you guys or her?

 

For both, for sure. You know, she was screaming, crying,

“don’t go, don’t go,” you know. Everybody but Faith

knows she’s fine. But being there, listening to

her pain. And, you know, the first few times they

would pry Faith off of Mom and Mom would

be crying and Faith would be crying

and Mom would just step outside.

 

Wait, she didn’t leave?

 

No, she’d go sit outside in the car. Yeah, it was

very traumatic. It was very difficult, but she eventually

figure out that she was fine and would let

us go off on our merry way, but, yeah.

 

So, obviously when kids are young, there is a very strong emotional attachment to the parents, but as they grow up, like…in what ways do you see that change?

 

I think the attachment is always there, it’s just not shown

as…outwardly? Strongly? It’s not the right word,

but it’s always there. It doesn’t weaken, it’s just not shown as…

 

Publicly?

 

Yeah, that’s it. Little kids run up and hug you,

“I love you!” Try that in middle school.

 

Well, middle school – that’s unfair. Middle school

is a tough time for people.

 

I know, I know, but that’s the

contrast I’m trying to throw out there.

 

No, yeah.

 

And you know, high school, college it mellows down

further. But the attachment isn’t gone at all,

it’s just not shown as outwardly.

 

So, you have the experience of being the kid and

having parents, but then flipping the script and being

the parent with kids, so did – I’m sure you had a change

in the concept of parenthood – so like…

 

Oh, absolutely.

 

Yeah, talk about that.

 

Oh geez, this is going back so many years, but yeah.

I remember thinking things and filing them away like,

when my parents did something I didn’t like I would

think “I gotta make sure I’m not like that-”

 

Yeah.

 

And the thing is I probably do it anyway. And your

perception changes from when you’re a kid, to

young adult to having children, partially because

you’re maturing emotionally and you have different

priorities. When you're a kid, you’re thinking a parent

should be this, this, this, and when you become

a parent, you’re realizing that you’re the sole source

of your child’s…well, everything, and your priority

shifts, you know. You’re not thinking about being

the fun, cool parent, you’re thinking “I’m going

to be the one that protects you and keeps you from

doing the wrong thing, even though you don’t like it.”

 

Right.

 

So, yeah, several things you see your kid develop

on their own and then there are some things you

think “okay I have to teach them right from wrong and

good from bad, etc. etc.”

 

Right, but you think emotionally maturing for the

kid is in a different dimension from right and wrong?

 

They’re two different things, but they intertwine.

 

 

They’re two different things, but they intertwine.

​

​

Do you have any thoughts on that intersection? In

what ways are they intertwined? Like, how do we see

right and wrong and where does that touch on emotions,

and is that something that you teach?

 

Right or wrong...emotions?

 

Well, I guess, social norms. Like you teach your kid not

to pick their nose in public, but is it okay to cry on a bus

or get angry and storm out of a meeting, or something?

 

Yeah, okay I see where you’re going with this. Okay,

um…that’s hard, because you don’t really teach

…different people show their emotions differently.

Some are very public and outward and some are very

reserved and...is one right and the other wrong? Not

necessarily. There’s not generalizations, but if you pick

up on specific behaviors, like that one that’s really withdrawn

and tell them “hey, you gotta come out a little bit,”

or the one that’s out there just wearing their heart on their

sleeve, you just “Hey, reign in it a little bit.” You pick up

certain specific things and point that out and say “hey, that’s

too much, you gotta back off. It’s okay to be like that,

but this is too much.”

 

And with personality development, there are a

couple different schools of thought about how

personalities develop, but I think the most widely

accepted is that people have certain genetic dispositions

when they’re born, but they usually turn out like models

of their parents or the most prominent people in their

life, like how they express their emotions and how they

do certain things, so do you agree with that?

 

Not 100% but yeah, there’s definitely…yeah, you model

yourself after people in your life. Do you model the way they

have emotions? Not necessarily. I’m sure you do to a

point, but you develop your own emotional makeup and

that could be different than these people who are prominent in

your life, so you would respond differently and probably not

cognizant of it, like “oh, in this situation my dad would be very stoic

and here I am crying,” like, you’re not thinking that way…maybe

some people do, I don’t.

 

So what do you think those other factors are

that go into people…

 

Their emotional makeup?

 

Yeah, because you said it’s not completely based

off of the people in their life, so what goes into that?

 

Oh there’s so many things. It’s your personal life. If you’re in

a stable loving relationship with someone, then your

emotions are tempered more than if you’re thrown into chaotic

situations all the time and you don’t know what your day is going

to be like from one day to the next, you’re emotions are going

to be different.

 

So do you think having healthy relationships

helps you regulate emotions?

 

Regulate, temper, yeah. I think so. And, of course,

wrapped up in that too, is the chemical balance that could

cause mental illness.

 

Sure.

 

If you’re emotionally unstable, it could be a reflection of

something deeper, not necessarily just environment or

genetics, so there’s that too.

 

For sure. And, one thing I want to talk about is,

you said emotionally maturity happens as you

grow up, so… and you don’t have to go into specifics,

but, as you grow up, what do you think that arc looks

like for people? And like, do you think about Faith’s

emotional maturity differently than your own?

 

Yeah, I think about it differently because I’m not so

concerned about developing anyone’s emotional maturity:

yours,mine, whoever’s. But do I look at my own emotions

differently than yours? Yeah, because I’m inside my head,

I only get from you what you put out there. I can’t get inside

your head like I get inside mine.

 

​

I only get from you what you put out there.

​

​

So, when I say emotional maturity, what’s the

definition that comes to your mind?

 

I guess the ability to show restraint if necessary or, the

flip side, like a self-analysis, so to say: “this should be bugging me,

but it’s not, why?” Kids don’t do that. They just react, they don’t

think about it, so it’s about self-analysis.

 

So, were you ever worried about Faith or me

being sociopaths?

 

Sociopaths? No.

 

Really? I was hoping.

 

Well, you know. Mom and I voiced concerns about things,

but it was never to the point where we labeled anything.

Now, do we all exhibit sociopathic behavior every once in a

while? Sure, but to hang that label on someone, you have

to exhibit very specific and strong behaviors, but no.

You never came close.

 

Boo.

 

Sorry. I mean, if you wanted to make up a story-

 

I was thinking about that. Just writing up

“you used to skin animals when you were younger,”

but that would have painted me in a really bad light.

 

Well, not you, Faith, and we don’t want her to feel

bad,so we’ll just gloss over that.

 

Oh, she skinned animals when she was younger?

 

Mhm. With her teeth.

 

Okay, so when I say parents help guide kids through

life in the sense that you’ll show them social norms

that are acceptable and not acceptable?

 

Yes, absolutely.

 

Okay, so, do you think that means that kids are

emotionally healthy, or that they conform to certain

norms?

 

Yes, that’s a parent’s responsibility, but you know,

emotional health varies greatly between families and cultures,

and social norms…a good parent will take the time to point

out “hey, act like this or else you won’t…fit in.”

 

So, when you see people who don’t abide by

certain social norms that are considered polite,

do you think that reflects on the parents or on

that adult the kid became?

 

Both. Mostly assigning the blame to the parent because the

kid probably saw that behavior and modeled it, but

sometimes people are just assholes no matter what you do.

 

So, do you think there’s a certain age when

people start taking responsibilities for their own…

I guess actions, but also intelligence and maturity?

 

Yeah, I guess it depends on…

 

If they’re mentally healthy and they don’t have

any disabilities.

 

As you grow older, expectations are raised. You don’t put

the same expectations on a four year old as you do a

fourteen year old.

 

Do you remember growing up and having a first

realization that, “oh, my thoughts and beliefs differ

from my parents?”

 

Um, yeah. I don’t know age, but yeah.

 

That’s interesting to me, because I didn’t think a

lot of people would remember that.

 

Oh, I think it happens to a lot of people.

 

Really?

 

Oh yeah, absolutely. And that’s, as you become your own

person, you realize that you are not just a clone of your parents,

you’re your own person, with your own beliefs and emotions

and make up that makes you unique. Most people come to that

realization as they get to their early teens – that’s when I

remember realizing that I wasn’t thinking just like my

parents; that I have my own thoughts.

 

I think that’s really interesting, because that’s

a pretty big step in life that we don’t really talk

about. Like, realizing “whoa, I have thoughts and

opinions that matter and they aren’t something

that I’ve been exposed to all the time.”

​

​

...that’s a pretty big step in life that we don’t really talk about.

​

​

And they’re not mimicking exactly what their

parents have done.

 

Exactly. Here’s an interesting question: do you

think that society in general talks about their

emotions in a healthy way or in a not so healthy

way?

 

I think, from the male point of view, that it’s

not healthy.

 

That’s real though.

 

Yeah, you know. Men are men, women are women, and

that’s part of the makeup. Men are taught, culturally, to

suppress their emotions and women talk about them more,

comparatively, because they aren’t told to

suppress them as much as men are.

 

That’s so true.

 

And it’s not healthy, you know.

 

That’s something I talk about with my friends a lot.

Like, we notice that the women in our friend group

are much more willing to talk about really personal

things than two guys are willing to.

 

Absolutely, yes.

 

So, you had two brothers and one sister, so did you

ever notice anything different about Aunt Katie’s friends,

or did you notice any kind of disconnect there? Was it

always this accepted that guys hang out in a certain way

and girls hang out in a certain way?

 

Oh gosh, yes. That was obvious early on,

absolutely.

 

Really?

 

Oh yeah.

 

Can you think of a specific example?

 

Well, just the way that Katie and Theresa, who she’s still

friends with now interacted was much different than how I’d

interact with my male friends and…yeah, that

became pretty apparent early on.

 

Have you heard the phrase “toxic masculinity”

before?

 

I have not.

 

Really?

 

Really.

 

Oh, well, it’s like how people always say things like

“man up” or “grow a pair,” and it encourages this

idea of masculinity that is completely unattainable

because…men are people…who have emotions…too.

Do you agree with that?

 

Do I agree that it’s toxic?

 

Yeah.

 

Absolutely - I don’t think it’s healthy at all. It’s kind of a

holdover from caveman days when men were the protectors

and women stayed home with the fire and kids, and…it’s

about time to move on since we’re past that, you know. There’s

no roving band of warriors coming around attacking us.

 

Thankfully.

​

​

...it’s about time to move on since we’re past that...

​

​

Yeah, you know, we’re a lot better off. But, yeah, it’s time

to evolve the emotions around that too.

 

Yeah. Do you think you’re more emotionally open

with your guys friends today, in your early fifties,

than when you were younger, or is it the same kind

of status quo?

 

I would say more today than back then, because you’re

a bit more relaxed, you’re worried about alienating yourself.

If you put goofy emotions out there people would say,

“oh, that’s weird.” You’re a little more comfortable in your

relationships that you’re not so worried about how it’s

perceived.

 

So, would you feel comfortable with the same amount

of emotional expression – not sharing personal details,

but expressiveness – around a new friend from work as

you are with Chuck, who you’ve known since you were kids?

 

No, it would be totally different.

 

Why do you think that is?

 

…that’s a good question.

 

Bam.

 

…it gets weird because, the older you get the less you care

what people think, so would I care what someone thought if I

threw out an emotion as opposed to throwing it out to

Chuck? Yeah, because you treat strangers differently than people

you know and love. Like, it’s hard to hate somebody you

don’t know.

 

Yeah, for sure. So, having an established relationship

that you understand the dynamic of is important to

have open emotional expression?

​

Yes.